Ungkristen.com

Jeg chattet litt i et kristent irc-chatterom nylig, og vi pratet om løst å fast. Men så begynte vi å diskutere litt med en panteist. Diskusjonen var lite agressiv, det var stort sett bare tanker vi kastet ut. Vi snakket om hvordan man kan behandle umateriele enheter osv. Hvordan snakker man om ånd og sjel? Hvordan snakker man om ideer? Er de umaterielle? Er de faktiske ting?

Her er et utdrag fra diskusjonen, hvor BigThumb, panteisten begynte å snakke om ideer. Noen kan synes dette er kjempekjedlig. Men jeg syntes ivertfall at det var veldig interresant å snakke om. Kall meg nerd

Ragnar: so BigThumb, what are your beliefs?
[22:14] BigThumb: ragnar ah, a very relavent point
[22:14] Ragnar: it certainly is
[22:15] BigThumb: well, I look at ideas. I look at how one may relate to an idea. Picking it up, putting it down, observing it, ignoring it, holding it close, pushing it away…
[22:15] Ragnar: hm
[22:16] Ragnar: are those things we do to an idea, or are those things just words we describe about how our stance is towards an idea
[22:16] Ragnar: ?
[22:16] Ragnar: we use to describe how our… *
[22:17] BigThumb: well, I’m not seeing the difference. It’s what u do with the idea. How you relate to it. Yr “stance” relative to it. Sure
[22:17] Ragnar: it’s a difference
[22:18] Ragnar: because if you do something to a thing, then you must effect it in some way
[22:18] Ragnar: but when you push an idea away, you are actually effecting yourself, but not the idea
[22:18] BigThumb: oh, ok. In this case I’m not sure how the idea is affected
[22:18] Ragnar: k
[22:18] BigThumb: It’s something I’ve thought about. Do I find ideas or create them? Both? Neither?
[22:19] RazorsKiss: Some ideas are innate, some are found, some are created.
[22:19] • cds-writes wonders if Big Thumb has ever wondered how he is able to have ideas in the first place.
[22:19] Ragnar: ah..I think we are not the first people thinking about this
[22:19] RazorsKiss: but yes, the ability to have them is a gift
[22:19] BigThumb: If I find ideas then I guess we’re sitting in the midst of some kind of gigantic idea-ecology. Like a rainforest.
[22:19] RazorsKiss: the Imago Dei
[22:20] Ragnar: yeah, I do think it is possible to create ideas
[22:20] RazorsKiss: or perhaps because the things we experience are made to evoke such ideas?
[22:20] RazorsKiss: by “to”, I mean “in order to”
[22:20] RazorsKiss: sorry
[22:21] Ragnar: man, I love this conversation
[22:21] BigThumb: Even the ideasuff itself might not be so “digital” I mean, the idearealm might be a smear, a continuum- and when we speak of ideas we aren’t talking about “objects” but “locations”
[22:21] Ragnar: is this a question, or something you believe?
[22:22] BigThumb: who, me or razorskiss?
[22:22] Ragnar: you
[22:22] BigThumb: well, it’s a speculation
[22:22] Ragnar: never mind
[22:22] Ragnar: k
[22:22] Ragnar: but, how can something have locations without being material?
[22:22] RazorsKiss: dun dun dun!
[22:23] Ragnar:
[22:23] brigand: Unless of course by “location” he doesn’t mean “location”
[22:23] Ragnar: exactly
[22:23] BigThumb: Sometimes I think of identity that way
[22:23] BigThumb: That “me” is basically a locus of perceptions and ideas that I’ve gotten comfortable in
[22:23] Ragnar: but then we are back to using material words to describe the immaterial
[22:23] Ragnar: wait
[22:23] Ragnar: you used two different “Me”s in there
[22:24] Ragnar: how can you have gotten comfortable with you?
[22:24] BigThumb: ragnar they could be locations on quality-continuums.
[22:24] BigThumb: “dimension” is a flexible metaphor
[22:24] brigand: He’s used a personal pronoun to define the concept identified by his personal pronoun. How … circular.
[22:25] Ragnar: well, but then you are just using location to point to a certain idea in your quality-continuum. So what would be the reason to postulate this quality-continuum?
[22:25] BigThumb: ragnar ya, I hear ya. I guess I’m putting the strange in common terms
[22:26] BigThumb: ragnar well, I see quality continuums existing. ex: Hotness- bounded by really-hot and not-so-hot
[22:27] BigThumb: A locus of the “essence of hotness”- an archetype maybe.
[22:27] RazorsKiss: so material objects have qualitative porperties, in other words
[22:27] RazorsKiss: *properties
[22:27] BigThumb: Hey ya, the theory archetypes bear on this convo
[22:27] Ragnar: so listen to this BigThumb:
[22:27] BigThumb: k
[22:29] BigThumb: are you typing a big paragraph?
[22:29] Ragnar: if I got two ideas, 1. It would be cool to build a huge icecream-factory in my backyard and 2. I think Augustin was the first Roman Catholic . Where would you but them on your continuum? And if I have another idea, say “I want more milk”, would you put it in the middle of 1. and 2., or to the left of 2?
[22:30] RazorsKiss: haha
[22:30] BigThumb: Good question.
[22:30] RazorsKiss: great!
[22:30] BigThumb: I suppose it might be complicated
[22:30] Ragnar: yea
[22:30] RazorsKiss: or, they are discrete entities
[22:31] RazorsKiss: objects/concepts, etc etc
[22:31] BigThumb: or both. or neither. I’m up for all theories